The Future Can't Wait.

What if the future isn't something that happens to us, but something we build together? In this debut episode, Sam Mellerson and Tshaka Barrows of the Haywood Burns Institute introduce Future on Deck — a space where social innovation, human potential, and radical imagination collide. This is their first conversation, their first question, and an open invitation to dream out loud and co-create a world not yet built. The future cannot wait.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:02

You can act potentially. What you call a human potential is not of any kind of measurable limit.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

It can go as far as you desire, or as far as you have the urge to Welcome to Future Undeck, a podcast exploring the intersection of human potential and social innovation. I'm Sam Mellerson.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

And I'm Shaka Barrow, and we are co-host and co-executive directors of the Hayward Burns Institute, a national nonprofit that facilitates community-centered solutions to address systemic barriers.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

We've worked in over 300 counties across the country to address institutional racism and the social control of communities of color.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

And we are going to take time on this journey together to explore a vision for a world that works for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Journey with us is we build a future world together. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the first season of Future on Deck. Shaka, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Well, we're trying something new. You know, we've been at it for over 20 years addressing these issues of human services and, you know, trying to squeeze success out of these systems that have ultimately failed so many. And, you know, I think what we're trying to do is create some space to really dream together, to pour into visioning, to lift up those who are out there on the edge, on the margins, really living for the future and bringing that future to life. So we're adding our our little bit of flavor to the gumbo, if you will, around what that might look like.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

And we're doing the damn thing, and you just went right there. So who are you? Who am I? Who are we?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Great question. So I'm Shaka Barrows with the Burns Institute. And you are my co-executive director.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I thought you were gonna say sidekick almost. And I was gonna say, no, I'm not, I'm not your sidekick.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Right. Like, no, no, no, no. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

We are we are co-executive directors, co-leading. We talk a lot about sharing power. I'm sure it's something that will come up a lot. Something that we attest to is a definite recipe for greatness and also a piece of humble pie, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

That's right. But as the African proverb says, if you want to go fast, go by yourself. If you want to go far, you go together. Together. And we're trying to live that, you know. And it's not just together as co-executive directors, but really this notion of leaning in together, building together, that we as a people, as a species of humanity, we are interconnected. We need each other, right? And so for us, that's a big part of how we do the work and how we want this uh podcast to go as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

And let's take a minute to also just bring our brother James Bell into the room because we are here as part of the you know co-leadership of the Haywood Burns Institute, the institute that James Bell started, founded, who was both a friend, a mentor, a confidant, a companion, all of our people, right? And we have a lot of gems that we've gotten from James over the years. It's also, I think, gonna be front and center for us as we continue to have these really audacious conversations.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Absolutely. You know, James was all about innovation. The Burns Institute, we started our work addressing youth justice, addressing racial and ethnic disparities within the administration of justice. What everybody said, there's nothing you can do about that. Race and justice is as American as apple pie, is what somebody told me. And flat out would tell him, oh, you and these youngsters, what are y'all gonna do? You're gonna do something about this, and very flippantly would say that. And what we know now is, yeah, actually, we did do something about it. We did a lot about it. We got together with a whole lot of people that worked in over 300 jurisdictions across the country and showed every, all the naysayers that, oh, no, no, we're not gonna sit back and just watch this happen. You know, we're gonna have something to say about it. But Sam, what what about you? What's your thoughts on why we're doing this and where we're going?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Man, so many, so many thoughts. I think for me, it is we, I feel like we are artists of difficult conversations. And what better place to highlight, to spark, to engage in innovation and dialogue when we have the skill set that we have to kind of really normalize having tough conversations. I think we've learned a lot. A lot of folks tap into us to talk through stuff to help them see another perspective. Um, I think it's what the world needs right now. I think it's what we do very naturally. I think we do it with authenticity, with integrity. I think we also bring a little bit of brevity to it, a little bit of levity. Um, so just really I'm hoping that we can spark much needed conversations and dialogue to not only bring us into a term we heard earlier today, which was optimistic innovation, right? And thinking about a really audacious future for us all to really get our arms around. Um, but also the needed conversations around discourse and what's necessary and how we still see each other and center people as we're working towards something better, a better tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

And I know you get it, just like I do from friends and family. Like, what are y'all doing with all this craziness going down, with all these attacks on communities, with ice out there just snatching people up, you know, people just really being fearful right now and having so much uncertainty. And, you know, I know I get those questions. And also we wanted to use this vehicle, this opportunity to both be a place to acknowledge that, right? Acknowledge what we've been through, but also not forget that this is not the first time that these plays have been made. This is not the first time these attacks have happened, and it will likely not be the last if we don't pay attention to both where we've come from, but also where we're going, right? What is our North Star? And so, as all of us are trying to make sense of the chaos, we feel that it's critical to also carve out space, to really think about well, what happens after this? We're gonna get through this, right? We're gonna people are are standing up, people are taking action, we're seeing that all over the place, we're seeing solidarity efforts from all walks of life. And yet we have to still tell ourselves, you know, it's important to think about what happens next. What are we building that will replace the things that are being torn down and and dismantled and taken apart? You know, what does the future look like? And so I think this is also, you know, really important to us as we think about, you know, that very uh question you raise and the notion of of you know what's going on right now.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah, the irony I think when I hear you speak is, and I know you get this a lot too, when we dive into these issues and when you talk about racial justice and the work that we've done and how you bring folks together and building these bridges, I think the passion that it brings out in folks and certainly in us, people almost think like we must be so angry, right? Like there's an anger to it. And I it it's so the irony of it is like what anchors us in the conversation, and I think on what anchors us and why we see the need to really talk about human potential is the love, right? It's not anger, it's love. Like love for people, love for solutions, love for belonging, love for all the things that we know that we need. And so, yeah, I also want listeners to know when we get animated, when we get agitated, when we debate, when we dive in, when our voices get rough, it's centered in love, not anger.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Right. And and it's about energy. You know, we're we don't know the future. We don't have, you know, we can't turn to the back of the book to get the answers on all these questions we have. And yet that energy is so important to us to be able to get in there, right? And hear each other, hear somebody get really excited about an idea that somebody else is like, well, that might be that's crazy. And then like, well, how many things that we rely on today were crazy ideas in the past, right? That somebody thought, well, that's impossible, you'll never do that.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

But yet, come on, come on, and oh, you want to give me an analogy.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Ah, yes, of course. I mean, you know, there's so many, but I mean, I always think about as we're on podcasts and you might be listening on, you know, your fancy Bluetooth headphones. You go back in the day and you think about that Sony Walkman, the way you used to carry our music with us. We used to, you know, that and that was an advancement. So you had a little cassette tape and you could just put that in and go. And that was like state of the art. You had the yellow walkman. I know some of y'all older folks know you were really doing it. Sony, that was the cutting edge. And then there was discs. Then you got moved to the CD because you didn't have to rewind and wait for it to be round. Now you could skip around and do all that. So advancements were coming because people kept imagining other ways to hear music. And then some fools were like, well, guess what? We're gonna get rid of the CD and the tape. We're gonna put it all in a digital format, right? The iPod comes along, which then leads to the iPhone, and you just see these advancements all off of basically people's visions, and then them going about trying to create those visions, having the resources to support their research and development. Let's not leave that out. But then also just really living out there on the edge, figuring out how to then make it accessible. Next thing you know, tapes and CDs are a thing of the past, right? And so in human services and the work we do, we really believe that there's opportunity for this type of advancement, this type of innovation, but we have to free ourselves of thinking that we can't do it or there's no time or it's impossible, or my ideas are too crazy for me to share. And or maybe I'll be embarrassed by your reaction, you know, the type of things that that we run into.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah, I I love that analogy of the Walkman. I I do actually think I had the yellow Sony that you're talking about, though. I do, um, but I've advanced.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

But these kind of technological advancements excite people, right? And I'm so curious, though, in human services, when we talk about change, what's different, how we advance, right? How we go from kind of surveillance and control to innovation, freedom, livelihood, well-being, right? When we get there, what do you think the challenge is? Why aren't we as excited about getting there as we are about letting go of our Wachman?

SPEAKER_02 11:13

I think it's risky. I think it's it's a risky thing to do. And you have to build a culture where it's comfortable and safe for people to imagine and to dream and to envision. And so much of our work is about addressing racial and ethnic disparities within these human services and specifically justice. You're sitting with people who've had to do protective measures because they know that there's harm being done through their work. Or they see it. They may not own it, they may not say, like, oh, I'm doing this and I feel responsible. But there is a sense and there's a strong sense amongst folk at the table that, like, this is both real, this is out of, this is larger than me. I don't know if there's anything I can do about it. And at least what I've seen is people use that creative energy more to try to kind of also distance themselves from the parts that feel most uncomfortable, you know, of their aspects of their work, but also try to hold on to the sense of who they are while they're doing it. All of that gets clouds and muddies the water around this essence of like reimagining altogether what a new infrastructure would look like, rather than just like, well, what would my job look like, or what would our department or this agency look like with all of the limitations that come with those structures?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

So yeah, I think I am one of those people that actually thought everybody in the nonprofit sector or human service sector was united in this until I realized that, oh, not so much. I had the mindset that we were truly all working ourselves out of a job. Like that excited me. Even when I was younger, uh, like it really excited me to think, oh man, we're gonna do this thing so that no one ever has to do this again, right? And it wasn't until I got older that I realized how many people really looked at their career as like job security, feeding my family, making sure, like part, they're part of a much larger system that we were all operating within. And almost, like you said, there was a nervousness, right? To imagine something different. What does that mean for me? How does my family get positioned in that? What does it mean for, and if I believe what I'm doing is really helping people, then then what who's gonna help? Right? And not necessarily thinking, oh, oh, right, like if we if we actually create the solutions where this position isn't needed, well, that by default, at least in my mind, always meant, wow, we're gonna create all these new exciting jobs, right? I didn't see it as the end. I saw it as the birth of something new. And I I think you're right. I think unfortunately, I think that nervousness of the unknown sometimes limits our ability to trust that this will evolve into something different, where I will soar in that space and be thankful that even if I truly am helping people every day, that that help is no longer necessary because they're thriving. And so I get to channel this into something even better, you know, that takes us all to the next level. Um, and I think that's part of that optimistic futurism, right? It's like, let's get grounded in that. Let's let's grounded in the sense of butt flying. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Yeah, I mean, I've I would say like where I've seen the most innovation in human services is from organizations that are small, very local, and have very little resources, which almost forces them to be creative and to be, you know, on the edge and not to be afraid to try something that may be seen as risky or taboo or off, you know, outside of the norms in a way that might raise somebody's brow. But it is basically giving me so much by having, you know, we had a whole national network of community-based organizations, community justice network for youth, working to keep kids out of the system. And over and over I would see innovation at the local level, right? At that human level, usually rooted to relationships. And so as these, as I experienced larger and larger institutions where relationships were much harder to be at the center, innovation just disappeared or was crushed. I mean, even so much so that I recall one time we had a meeting uh with some probation officers, and we asked them to identify a couple probation officers who really model some of the best practices, really, you know, cutting edge, very effective with these youngsters in the target population, mostly black kids uh from this community. And so they invited these two brothers to this meeting. In the meeting, they basically hid and kept to themselves the good things they were doing. Every time we asked them, they didn't feel comfortable sharing it or they would downplay it. They understood the culture to be very different than their practices, but they knew their practices were working. So I approached them after the meeting, and I was like, Do you you know they invited you here to talk about like the stuff you actually do that that's above and beyond the job? And they're like, them people don't care about that. We're not speaking about that in here. We do that with our own money. We don't get resources to do that. We do that outside of the kind of expectations of this role. And so even at that level, it just became really clear that this is a real issue to innovation. You know, we really need to understand these dynamics that impact us as people, because it's whose job is it to do this, right? It's it's all of our jobs, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah, you know, you just reminded me the importance, I think, to state that sometimes bringing folks closest, and we say this all the time, to if we're going to um recreate, right, uh community-based alternative systems and structures, we're gonna create these new constructs, how important it is to center community, because sometimes what is seen in the work world of red tape and policy and practice, um, what is seen as innovation in that space is sometimes common sense and community. You know, I think about another innovation we saw was at Evening Reporting Center in Baltimore, right? Where they had to figure out what they were gonna do with girls. Oh, they had to create this whole other thing. Well, there wasn't enough girls to do that. How are they? It was the parents that were on the management team that said, What, well, why wouldn't the girls just come here? Oh my God, people said, Boys and girls in the same center. Well, yeah, they're at school together all day. Like what? Sure, they could come here in the evening together, right? It was a no-brainer, right? And it was yet it was so innovative in the field to then integrate girls into this program. And it's just, it just goes to show, right, how important it is to have all of us, those centered directly in the center of the issue in community, at the table with folks who are like from this different perch, almost seeing this in in very different ways, coming together to innovate and to create and to come up with ways that really should it it almost seems like sometimes your best innovations are really common sense, and yet we haven't touched them yet.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

That's future on deck, Sam. I've you said it in a nutshell. Taking that mindset and thinking back, you know, historically, and not just for any one aspect, but you think of, you know, justice, and you think, you know, one aspect of justice that we could apply this kind of do some radical imagination together right now. The history of probation was started by a man named John Augustus. He was not a law enforcement officer, he was not a policeman, he was not a part of the penal system, he was a shoe cobbler who just made it his life's work to advocate for people to get out of jail. And he would do that consistently. Sometimes they'd come work with him, but not always. But he was consistent about advocating for people to get out of jail and to find a way back into a stable situation. And probation sees John Augustus as the grandfather of probation, the founding father. But now probation is the number one referral source for you to be locked up. So it's we've gone a 180 in a lot of senses. And so if we get to take a little notion of radical imagination, what does it look like to reimagine a whole department that at its core are building and and supporting trusted relationships with caring individuals who are supporting youth and their families? Right? To actually be in service of building and supporting healthy relationships in the community. Right? What what would that job look like? What would the entry-level position be? What might the managers do? What would the director of that and you know, like that level of thinking, right? Not just like, well, we start with the blue sky, but then we get into like right, we know relationships move people, we know that's the most effective intervention in a young person's life in trouble with the law, is a caring relationship with a trusted adult. But yet the system struggles to support that right now in such a way. What would it look like to build something that at its core is built to execute that, right? It is built with this, you know, clear North Star of no relationships are first. We're not gonna put the county budget or you know, the need to move something because of an elected official, you know, all the kind of pressures that face the current bureaucracies, right? What would that really look like?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah, I feel like that, I feel like everybody should be all probation officers in this example, would be all excited to redefine what that looks like, right? To be grounded in relationship and trust and help young people develop, right? What does it look like to be centered? And it's funny because it brings me right to RLA work is well, right. What could that be? It could be youth development, right? In youth development and making sure that young people have all that they need to thrive, which I actually really do believe that everybody that does that work started with that idea. I think job protection, political pressures, I think that can take people down some different paths. But ideally, right, I think it's the excitement of saying, wow, we could really do this differently. What does it look like? I'll I'll tell you the evening reporting center I just spoke about that brought girls in. I mean, the amazing thing with that was like kids actually wanted to go to it. Right? I mean, this is young people could be excited to come check in and see and give you their progress and what's going on and talk about these other things and interests that they have and what they now feel is possible for them to attain. I mean, there's just I feel like it's flipping it on its head to say, like, wow, you can even parent with tough love sometimes, right? You can tell your child what they did was wrong. This was a mistake, this is a consequence, this is how we do it. But you know what? It's anchored in love. And so the kid gets that, they come back, they're still engaged, we're diving back. We're still gonna go to the park tomorrow, we're still gonna eat ice cream, right? We're still gonna have all these great things, and I'm still gonna create a world of opportunity for you to feel you have whatever you need to be whatever you want to be, right? Whether I agree with it or not, right? Isn't my job as a parent to hope that my child has the agency to tell me that?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, I mean, I think that part of why we look at history is because we have to establish some sense of how we've gotten here. And we know that we're ahistorical in this country. So many people don't know their own histories, they don't have a sense of the history of their people. And that's not just black folks, that's not just people of color. There's many white folks who don't understand the history of their people past, you know, a certain moment. And that's a big part of our work is understanding we all come from rich cultural people who had practices that were sacred, who used those practices to help address some of the very issues that we're trying to grapple with. And by acting like we are ahistorical and that doesn't exist, it also zaps us of a whole bunch of opportunities to learn from ancient wisdom, wisdom that was forged over generations, practice that have proven themselves to work. Um, and instead we're always constantly trying to recreate the wheel. There's a lot of distrust, people don't know where each other are coming from. You know, we you really have to be in you have to tap into who you are. What's your integrity? Like what level how do you practice living out your values in professional settings, right? That's that adds a layer of difficulty. A lot of folks may not even do that in their personal life without some trepidation. But to do that in professional settings with hierarchy and all the things that come uh really makes some challenges, but we don't think they're insurmountable. You know, we think that we can lean into our integrity and create space and opportunity to bring more of who we are to the table. And we're hoping to do and model some of that even through, you know, again, future on deck. Because it's really about how do we all of us feel a responsibility for the future. Nobody has the answer book. We're all going to be struggling together. And I always tell people, history never walks in the room and tells you that you're making it. So nobody in the past got to know that their contribution would stand tall and that everything would work out. They struggled just like we're struggling right now. And yet they overcame, they came together. We can do that too. We can learn from those experiences and bring that forward.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

I love it. Acknowledging the history, knowing where we are now, and understanding the limitlessness of the design and capability we have for the future. Well, I can't think of a better way to wrap up this first conversation. First of many, my brother. Appreciate the time in sitting down with you today and looking forward to unlocking our human potential.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yes, it's coming. I can feel it. I can feel it in the air. This is a long time coming and the time is now.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Future on deck. Bases loaded, shock us up to bed.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

We got next, baby. Here we come.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

We recognize what a privilege it is to share this time and space with you all as we consider our limitless potential to build a better future for this world. We would like to thank our listeners for your support, and thank you to our team and producers.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

There is a bright future on deck, and we hope this podcast is a reminder that you all have a meaningful part and a great responsibility in building it. It's the opportunity of a lifetime. You can download Future on Deck wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment to us about your own vision for the future. Help us get the word out.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

So if you're new here, come on in. This is a space where we all belong.